Before committing bullies to a juvenille detention facility, there shouldprobably be some investigation into the home life of the child. Where do you think the child learned the behavior? Not all children grow up with loving adults to teach them right from wrong and to express empathy to others. Some children are at the least ignored, yelled at or picked on, and at the worst subjected to verbal, emotional and physical abuse. The parents of these children may not care at all or may be bullies themselves....I know some adult bullies....perhaps the apples didn't fall to far from the tree here.

yes, absoulutely the parents should be involved in the bullying prevention and community service.

ah, yes, religion must be the answer

http://www.essence.com/2010/09/28/sex-scandals-christian-church-eddie-long/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/europe/vatican-says-scandal-involving-popes-butler-erodes-trust.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Ireland

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286153,00.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_scandal_in_the_Catholic_archdiocese_of_Philadelphia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_leaders_convicted_of_crimes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_involving_evangelical_Christians

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2072839/Child-sex-abuse-scandal-rocks-Orthodox-Jewish-community-85-arrested.html

http://suite101.com/article/church-sex-abuse-scandals-are-not-just-a-catholic-crisis-a232196

@Winnetka, You have to understand as well that religion isn't the only answer needed. It can help because it can teach morals and values when used properly. But if you are going to point fingers at those of us who don't believe then you need to make sure you point back at yourself too. Ask some devout Christians what should be done about the "Islamic problem" and the answers generally have nothing to do with valuing life. Read about the crusades and how much they valued life. Read the old testament and figure out how much they valued every human life. And those types of examples cover many different faiths.

Religion in and of itself is not the answer. You still need parents to instil and enforce the values laid out by "God." You still need earthly authority figures to guide the children. As long as you have a moral leader in your life, be it a religious one or not, you should turn out alright.

Brian, as a non-believer, you had better do all you can to enjoy the earthly rewards you've created for yourself. This life is short so I hope your disappointments (and there will always be some) are few. I also hope that you might reconsider your decision not to believe sometime down the road. You only have this lifetime to choose, and you will be dead much longer than you will be alive. It's a huge gamble.

Every argument you can give for a religious system, one can argue against. It is morality based and a code of ethics to live by. Those don't need to be taught by God. They can also be taught by parents, who to a child should be an ultimate authority figure. If a family chooses to use religion to help guide their offspring, so be it. It can work. I was not raised religious and I was not a bully, bullied or any of the above.
You claim that everything bad happening today is because of people without God. We can turn that same comment against God as well. Many wars have been waged on His account. People murder on His account. And people bully on His account as well. Even here on message boards you us condescension through Him. God doesn't play a part in this. The teaching of morals and right and wrong does. The bible offers a convenient way to teach those morals, but as I said before, parents can teach morals just as well with real life experience.
"Mother is the name for God on the lips and hearts of all children." Parents can be just as powerful.

I agree with Brian. This has nothing to do with god, and everything to do with parenting. YOU are the one that teaches your children what's right and wrong, not god. Maybe you can use the bible as an example (although I personally wouldn't) but when it comes down to it, it's about what YOU TEACH your kids. In my book, leading and teaching by example trumps religion any day.

The interesting thing is that without an Absolute Moral Authority in the form of a supernatural being, there really is no basis for morality, and no basis for judging what is "right" and what is "wrong." If you completely disregard the existence of an Absolute Moral Authority, then why is bullying wrong? Most people would say that bullying is wrong because it is "wrong" or immoral to hurt other people. But if there is no Absolute Moral Authority, why is it wrong to hurt other people? You might say, well, I do not want other people hurting me, and the way to ensure I am safe is to have a rule that people should not hurt other people. But then the rule is not based on what is "good" or "moral," it is based on selfish notions of self-preservation. Anyway, its always interesting to watch people try to come up with "moral" principles or definitions of "right" and "wrong" that are divorced from the idea of an Absolute Moral Authority. These are not my original thoughts, by the way -- see Nietzsche's "Beyond Good and Evil."

Your point is well taken, but I don't feel that it really defines anything. Since the bible/religion predates our time by many many years it is easy to say that you need a deity to define morality as it currently exists. But we can get into the fact that people realize what death and life is. We understand that death is final and inflicting that on someone isn't right because of that finality. We understand what causes pain and our empathy and sympathy makes us remorseful and sorry that we did it. Is that only there because of religious teachings or also because of the consciousness that we have and the understanding of consequences and guilt? With those questions then, does God have to be the end all or is each man his own end all with the majority saying what is good and what isn't? Slaves in the bible were treated poorly....God said it was ok...is that moral and just? We have realized over time that that was and is wrong; I believe that we are capable of defining what can be described as fluid morality.

But why is it wrong to inflict pain on someone? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way.) It is very difficult to come up with a logical explanation of why something is immoral -- in the sense of running counter to some kind of value system -- without reference to some kind of universal authority. You can't just say, "it's wrong because everyone knows its wrong," or "your conscience tells you its wrong." Those explanations are inadequate because they do not answer why everyone knows something is wrong, or why your conscience is telling you its wrong. If I understand Nietzsche correctly, he was saying that non-theistic people have to come up with a new reasoning process to arrive at standards for their lives because the concept of "morality" does not make sense in the absence of a universal authority.

I think the concept of "fluid morality" is difficult. If something is immoral, in the sense of violating some external, objective values, then shouldn't it be immoral for all times? Standards and rules can be fluid, but is morality fluid? People may have changing views on what is moral, but does that mean morality itself has changed, or just people's perception of it?

I guess none of this has much practical applicability but its kinda intriguing to think about, no?

Brian, This is a dangerous notion. Without God, and the threat of eternal punishment or reward, their is absolutely no good reason for a person to have any morals at all. If you will only exist for the few years you live here on earth and then you will cease to exist the moment you die, the smartest folks will take everything they can out of this life, morals be damned. If there is no God, only the chumps will have morals, and everyone else will enjoy themselves at these moral chumps' expense.

I guess we're just disagreeing on what people are capable of reasoning. I don't believe in God. I do believe that the bible was written to help direct people in the right direction. Which leads directly to my saying that people know what's right and wrong. The intrinsic problem when disusing religion and deities is that one side "knows" they are right because God says so which makes any other reasoning and discussion worthless in their eyes. When an arguer can say "because God says so" that makes discussion not work.

When I said fluid morality I meant that we have changed ours, and the bibles definitions of morality over time. Women are treated better now then in biblical times, we don't beat or own slaves now because it is wrong, we don't sacrifice anything anymore because we know now that it is wrong.
@666, Sure, but Instead of following biblical rules, we also have to follow societal rules. I know that walking around aside wearing a fig leaf, or being nude in town would get me ostracized and probably arrested. It wouldn't send me to hell though. Every society has sets of laws, some still based on old religious virtues and some that we had to define to keep a civil society as we see fit. My incentive to live the right way lies in my fellow man and the planet I live on. I would like my son and those around me to see that I lived a good life. You don't have to fear hell to be a good person.

God and Mother Nature have no morality at all. Mother Nature kills countless animals, insects and plant life every second. And God allows wars, famines, poverty, disease, hunger, greed, and evil to kill people every day. He does nothing to stop it. He lets evil people prosper and good people die young. He allows the strong to take advantage of the weak, and the "might is right" principle to rule the world. God himself has no morals.

Morality is a kind of survival strategy for a species, rather than some "divine moral code" that exists for all creation. Morals are a set of appropriate behaviors in a society. If you deviate too far from what is considered "appropriate" by society, you will receive formal or informal sanctions. If you were to rob a bank, a formal sanction would be you receiving jail time. An informal sanction would be people shunning you and not wanting to associate with a thief.

Human society cannot exist unless we restrain ourselves from certain practices (murder, rape, slavery, etc.) If we look back at ancient societies, evidence clearly states that societies run the smoothest when people don't harm other people. That means no rape, murder, or slavery. I don't need a god or the Bible to tell me this.

Anywho, I have this thing called a conscience which tells me what is right or wrong. If I do something that makes me feel guilt or shame then I know that’s bad. If I do something that makes me feel better then I know that's good. I do not need an external god to tell me this. I also prefer to make good choices based on my own judgment, not because of fear of being struck down and banished to a hell of fire and brimstone by an interventionist god, and the off chance that things will be better when I'm dead.

What is your definition of "good" or "right?"

Good and right go hand in hand. That which is morally good or acceptable is something that is morally right. Assuming one is not a sociopath, humans use their feelings to decide what is right or good. As I stated before, if you do something that makes you feel awful, it probably isn't 'good' or 'right'. God didn't teach me the difference between good and bad...actions, example and experience did. If you hand a toddler a bible they aren't going to just gain the knowledge of what is right or wrong.

It's interesting that terms such as morality, conscience, right, wrong, etc. are being used by folks who say they have no belief in God.  I'm truly interested to know how any of these notions have any meaning at all to an authentic atheist.  

If there is no God, then there is no eternity, and if there is no eternity, then all we have is this life.  So, why in the world would an intelligent atheist follow any rules created by other people?  If there is no God, then the smartest folks will do whatever they can to get ahead and be the most comfortable, rules be damned!  If we only have this life, then any sort of charity or kindness towards others is foolishness, unless you stand to get something out of it.

"Assuming one is not a sociopath, humans use their feelings to decide what is right or good" -- There are cultures in which people "feel" that women who dress provocatively should be killed. There are cultures in which people "feel" that killing a woman for such reasons is beyond reprehensible. Both cultures are guided by how they "feel." Which one is morally correct, or good?

"Without God, and the threat of eternal punishment or reward, their is absolutely no good reason for a person to have any morals at all" as quoted by Independence666

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read and validates all of my negative feelings about religion. Truly good people do good because it feels good and is right. If the only reason someone does a good deed is out of fear or self motivation, how "good" can that person really be?

It has occurred to me that what people call "bullying" may just be a natural part of the evolutionary process. Stronger, more assertive individuals are probably more likely to have more and stronger offspring. What some call "bullying" may just be a manifestation of nature's way of strengthening the species. Just a thought.

Sally, I completely agree. Okay, Dave, let's follow the bible instead of how we feel. Here are some excellent examples.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
"Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death." (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
"A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death." (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
"But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst." (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

And how about the Texas Christian woman that stoned 2 of her children to death in 2003 because God told her to?

I'd rather teach my children than slap a book in their face.

Sally, if this is indeed, "one of the stupidest things you've ever read", then either you haven't thought it through, or you just don't get it. Your comment about "truly good people do good because it feels good and right", is a very naïve statement. It implies that all people "feel" as you do. There are countless examples that demonstrate that this is not the case. Just take a look at Adolph Hitler or Timothy McViegh, for instance. Both of these men "felt" that they were doing what was "good" and "right" to them.

No, our "feelings" cannot be used to define good or evil. Following this sort of relative morality is very dangerous and will only lead to disaster. In order to thrive on this earth, we all need to follow the laws given to us by the transcendent God who created all things. Just think how much safer and more pleasent this world would be to live in if everyone on earth chose to follow the Ten Commandments. There would be no more lying, envy, adultry, stealing, killing, etc.

Independence, you keep talking about the fact that God needs to be the end all to live a good life. I don't break rules because I don't want to spend my life in prison. I acknowledge that in our society I have to behave a certain way in order to stay living in said society. Certainly I am not worried about heaven and hell so my actions aren't confined by biblical repercussions. I don't murder and steal (etc) for two main reasons. I treat others as I would like to be treated on all scales and society has agreed that if I kill someone then I go to jail or worse.

You also choose to bring up examples of wrong doings by people who did things they feel. Then you must also be willing to acknowledge people that commit crimes based on the Lord, not the least of which is the crusades. Thou shalt not kill unless you are murdering in my name? John Wayne Gacy was raised catholic, apparently the 10 commandments didn't work on him. You are also saying that only about 35% of the world is living by the only true laws. On top of that you are assuming that all Christians would live exactly by the ten commandments which we know isn't true for the fact that sin exists. Also, according to your faith, no matter what you do wrong will be forgiven if forgiveness is asked for. Why don't you act out impulses? Religion isn't the only basis for good and evil, right and wrong. There are many other, just as powerful, places to learn what is and isn't acceptable.

Lexi - I didn't say anything about the Bible or any other religious text, so I'm not sure why you raised that.

The Bible is the foundation of Christianity.

Brian, apparently you have a chip on your shoulder regarding religion. That's unfortunate, because there is so much wisdom and peace to be found there. That being said, it's interesting that we agree that people typically do the "right thing" to avoid conciquences. You fear man's shunning or punishment, I fear God's. However, when you look at the rewards side of the equation, God offers eternal reward. Man? Not so much.

See, here's the thing. I don't have a problem with religion. I understand that all of them can do good things for people. Religion in general does manage to teach good things. My problem is that those who follow religions tend to shun any other opinion and look down on those who are different. Your only answers on how to help children and parents is religion, and more specifically Christianity. I say it can work, but there other ways as well. You want to lay blame at secularization without ever saying that there are bad people who are religious as well. Every time someone here points out some bad parts of either the bible or faith, you say we are just finding small examples of the bad. The truth is all you have to do is look around to see both great and awful examples of what religion can do. On the same token you can look just as lightly to see the good and bad in people who don't believe, or believe in a religion.

Sure, there is a chance (I don't believe) that I will end up in purgatory or hell when I die, with my only main fault being a good life, helping others and raising a family but not believing in Jesus. In turn, I don't have to live every day in fear of upsetting a God. My rewards are earthly bound. I get to watch my son grow up and teach him everything I know, I get to help people less fortunate then myself, and do my part to keep the earth livable for my eventual grandchildren. My reward is that I get to witness directly the fruits of my work.

Vincent - 30 years ago when i started grade school, my father told me: "do not let anyone pick on you, if they do, beat the crap out of them". fortunately, i never had to, but back then, the sort of teasing was a fraction of what it is today. the language and cruelty in kids as young as 4th grade today is stuff i never experienced in high school. the sources (TV, internet, movies) are obvious as is the lack of supervision on the part of parents (who let their kids watch all this stuff at ever younger ages it seems). when we send our kids off to school, it'd be nice if the teachers were paying attention, but it seems often they are not. last year, my daughter was in 2nd grade, for a time, i was on the phone with the principal regularly letting her know of specific situations in the classroom and on the playground that were being tolerated that i found unacceptable. fortunately, she followed up with the teachers and things improved. it does take the cooperation of parents and schools to raise children within a community. unfortunately, parents are too often overwhelmed (with work or overprogramming their kids with too many activities) and schools have been gutted of any morality programming it seems. for me, the only solution is to keep the lines of communication open with my children and their schools and limit who they play with after school to those children from families who are also 'involved' and paying attention.

Vincent: This is exactly the thinking that allowed the problem to escalate. Our society should NEVER condone violence of any kind - including verbal.

Next, you'll say "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" or "boys will be boys." As adults, we are to teach and socialize our children to be good people and good citizens.

Finally, next time, a student shoots up or blows up a school because they have been bullied and humiliated over and over again, well, kids will be kids..

Lexi, you are so right about the need to teach kids right vs. wrong, especially in regard to teasing and bullying. Many kids (of all ages) think it is funny to make fun of others. We need to consistently be a "moral compass" for them in order to foster respect and compassion.

Absolutely agree, Lexi G, that it is parenting so don't blame the kids. Problem is this ain't the 1950's anymore. Parent's are not around. Most are working and many divorced. 1950's, 78% of households were married couples with children. Today, that number is 48%. In black households today, only 20% are married households! U.S. Census Bureau 2011.

Regardless of if you are married, single, divorced, working or not, if you CHOSE to have children then you need to make sure you ARE around. I recently got married, but prior to that I was a single mom, working full-time, but I still made time for my daughter, and still taught her right from wrong, good from bad, etc. Many things are learned from personal experience as well, but you still need to guide them. The point is, parents made a conscious decision to have a child, therefore it is their responsibility to raise them. If a parent can't be around for their child, or choose not to be around, that is still the parents fault.

Yes Lexi, and as a society, we need to work harder and right being right and wrong being wrong. There alot of so called gray areas these days that do not give kids a strong sense of moral boundaries.

I wonder if this type of situation would have happened in the 50's? Granted, that era was not perfect, but society as a whole sent a much stronger message of respect for authority etc.

The Bible is a good moral guide for such things... it might be important to note that much of American society 'back then' was grounded in what the Holy writ said.

Today, sadly, what one person sees as morally correct, another might completely disagree.

There used to be much more of a consensus of what was right and wrong... I honestly think this contributes at least partially to the problem with bullying and other issues...

And some adults need to learn empathy and right from wrong(vincent)

Josh, that's an excellent point. Today's cultural elites ridicule the old television shows because "no one really lived that way." That may or may not be true, but that is not the point. The point is that the parents in those shows -- the mother and the father -- were portrayed as examples of ethical behavior. Role models are few and far between in the modern popular culture.

Josh, Stay tuned for my next next blog, "Teaching Children Empathy." Parents demonstrating and modeling empathy is the most powerful way to teach our kids.

PArents do have a serious responsibility. And yes, I have children. However, there are many more influences are our children then when I grew up.

Stewart, Is your comment tongue-in-cheek?

I think the punishment is harsh. The punishment, imho, should have been suspension of bus transportation for a year. If every day of the school year a parent has to sign the child in (e.g., no carpooling or nanny sign-in except in proven case of hardship), the lesson will be learned fairly well. I think 50 hours of community service is perhaps too many though I do like the concept.

These aren't victims of Soviet Style education. Negative energy? Sorry, I can't buy it.

I also feel similarly when parents let their kids race around in restaurants. Not all restaurants are Playlands, and kids who can't tell the difference need to be taught.